Curse

Gmr Leon · Nov 27, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

No, I still disagree, I don't consider them to be machines, that's the point I'm arguing on here. That should be obvious, though. Besides that, I didn't say the joints were invisible, I said the connections were. The connections are rather clearly to the crystals, either being emitted from the crystals or the other way around, from a central crystal to the rest of the parts directed to another crystal, possibly for amplification of the energy for the rest of the arms and legs.

In the case of the Jade Armors this is not as clearly cut, suggesting that it is not in fact entirely by design that they appear as they do.

Essentially, I view the difference as being as simple as comparing the Golems to the Graven Monoliths. Both involve magic, this is a given, but in both cases one is clearly designed and constructed, whereas the other appears to be a material influenced by magic to become what it is. That's not a very good distinguishing feature, of course, but basically, in one, you have multiple materials, and in the other, more or less a majority of one material.

Golems as metal and crystals, Graven Monoliths as..Well, stone. Same comparison can be made to the Jade Armors, you have the golems as already mentioned and the Jade Armors as, well, Jade. Basically, one is a coordination of refined/fashioned/bent/shaped materials and magic, whereas the other is merely a coordination of one refined material and magic. On a general level, if we say that Jade Armors are machines, then I'm going to go ahead and say that every monster that appears to be a mixture of one defined material and magic is a machine. This means Elementals are machines as well by that, how lovely.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 28, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

In the case of the Jade Armors this is not as clearly cut, suggesting that it is not in fact entirely by design that they appear as they do.

Does a machine need to look like its design? I guess a dented device is no longer a machine then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That's not a very good distinguishing feature, of course, but basically, in one, you have multiple materials, and in the other, more or less a majority of one material.

Since when is a machine "something with more than one material"? Can I not make a crude machine - say, a teeter tooter - out of one kind of material? I can, though it would be, as I said, very crude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

On a general level, if we say that Jade Armors are machines, then I'm going to go ahead and say that every monster that appears to be a mixture of one defined material and magic is a machine. This means Elementals are machines as well by that, how lovely.

That was rather my implication. By saying the joints - or connections, same difference really - are invisible, as long as a none living "being" has them, visible or not, those "beings" would technically be called machines as a machine is just a simple device of at least one joint - no matter the kind of joint.

Your arguing on semantics here. By what your saying, a machine is something that looks like how it was designed, is made of more than one material, has clear cut joints (not just simply having joints), and, in essence, that a machine is a very limited term to be used. In reality, if it is physical and can transfer movement, it is a machine. Animals (including humans) would be living machines, so if a golem is a machine without physical joints/connections (honestly doesn't matter which is the term used), why couldn't Jade Armors, which are lacking just one piece (per joint)?

Breakfast Mc Rit · Nov 28, 2009, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Does a machine need to look like its design? I guess a dented device is no longer a machine then.

Yet, there is a difference between the dented device and virtually haphazard slabs of rock that are possessed by magic.

Quote:

Since when is a machine "something with more than one material"? Can I not make a crude machine - say, a teeter tooter - out of one kind of material? I can, though it would be, as I said, very crude.

The complexity of the machine is irrelevant here, though I can see how the argument has been steered to make it appear to matter.

It's actually Mechanical (not the general meaning of the word

) vs. Magical technology. Let me try to put it this way: Generally, you could say that a human and a computer are the same thing. One is organic and the other is mechanical, however. One is "technology" of chaos and happy accidents and the other has form and is the technology of order and science. Two generally similar, but very distinct machines.

Jade vs. Golem? Mursaat vs. Asura? Magical theme vs. Magical-mechanical? I'm at my wits end.

Quote:

In reality, if it is physical and can transfer movement, it is a machine. Animals (including humans) would be living machines, so if a golem is a machine without physical joints/connections (honestly doesn't matter which is the term used), why couldn't Jade Armors, which are lacking just one piece (per joint)?

If we're speaking in generalities--which we're not, I get the feeling that technical definitions and generalities are something you use as a failsafe for your pet hypotheses--then, yes, the Jade are machines. As are the Asura. As are the human gods.

Is it worth reiterating the real point, though? I'm not so certain anymore.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 28, 2009, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

I get the feeling that technical definitions and generalities are something you use as a failsafe for your pet hypotheses

A failsafe means that it would be something I back into. However, I tend to always speak in general terms. But in this case, I was mearly pointing out that if we're going to list magical creations as machines, we might as well list anything that can be listed as a machine, a machine. The newer golems are machines, yes, but only in the magical sense (doesn't matter if there is metal or the like in it, if it doesn't move by scientific means, then it is only a magical-based machine, which would be the same as the Jade Armors).

In essence, machines can be listed under three categories: Organic, Magical, and Scientific. The only way for a hybrid to exist, is if the machine moves by more than one. So in the case for the new golems, it is only magical - unless there are wires and the like for circuits, which would be a completely different argument than saying they are a hybrid due to the arms and legs being connected through a crystal.

So from what we see, the new golems and the Jade Armors are both similar in the sense of being magical machines. The Jade Armors are less "clear cut" of how the pieces function as a machine, but as Leon himself pointed out (though not intentional I believe), the Head, Arms, and Torso still function as a machine. The other pieces that float around - which seems to be both of your reasons for why the Jade Armors are not machines - are not part of the joints and thus do not determine if the Jade Armor is a machine or not. In other words, those pieces which is constantly the target of why the Jade Armors are not machines, are in fact irrelevant to how they are machines.

By the way, did you see the update to the actual hypothesis, or did you only see the argument of terms which is 100% irrelevant to the actual point of the thread?

Gmr Leon · Nov 28, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

The point is, the Jade Armors are far more akin to enchanted materials than machines. The golems are a mixture of metal and calibrated crystals for a set purpose, in this case as joints and power sources. The calibrated crystals being suggested by this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Before the Battle

Gadd: "This HACK is telling me I don't know how to format a crystal array!"
Vekk: "I'm TRYING to say that you run a greater risk putting the crystals in a serial pattern than in parallel."
Gadd: "You'll get twice the power this way."
Vekk: "That's too much power, too fast! You'd flood the enchantment buffers."
Gadd: "Don't lecture me! I was formatting crystals before you were born."

Not only that, but isn't a machine by its nature usually interworking parts, which the golems show through the crystals? The Jade Armors don't display any interworking parts whatsoever that I am aware of.

Even disregarding all of this, is it entirely baseless to assume that, as the older models of golem showed mechanical characteristics, the newer models would retain these same characteristics, albeit perhaps on a less blatant scale?